How to Talk to a Cancer Patient Without Being a Complete Twit

How to Talk to a Cancer Patient Without Being a Complete Twit

General, Humour, Living with Neuroendocrine Cancer, Patient Advocacy
I enjoyed reading "8 rules on how to talk to a cancer patient" because I think much of it is written with 'tongue in cheek'.  Great title! In UK we might even spell the word 'twit' slightly differently (UK people will get it!). Some of the rules are directed at doctors and I'm sure some doctors will laugh (if you're a doctor and you didn't laugh, sorry). I think one or two are a bit harsh and could potentially backfire and at least one I partly disagree with.  Personally I try to balance my reactions to not come over as a 'pity party' and something which is genuinely offensive or upsetting to me as a cancer patient.  I appreciate understanding and empathy, perhaps sympathy, but I certainly don't want pity.…
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NET Cancer Blog – 2015 in review

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The WordPress.com stats team have prepared a 2015 annual report for my blog.  Special thanks to those who got a mention! Why not review my posts which received a 2015 Mention in Despatches ? Here's an excerpt: Madison Square Garden can seat 20,000 people for a concert. This blog was viewed about 62,000 times in 2015. If it were a concert at Madison Square Garden, it would take about 3 sold-out performances for that many people to see it. Click here to see the complete report.
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Neuroendocrine Cancer – a Doctor’s experience

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[caption id="attachment_4617" align="alignleft" width="225"] Dr Michael Richardson - NET Cancer Patient[/caption] UNFORTUNATELY, MILL HILL TIMES HAVE REMOVED THE DOCTOR'S STORY FROM THEIR WEBSITE BUT I'M TRYING TO OBTAIN THE SCRIPT ELSEWHERE. When I was undergoing my initial treatment and surgery I didn't really have the knowledge I have now.  I was initially treated by experienced Neuroendocrine Tumour (NET) specialists in an established NET Centre and I guess I felt comfortable with what was happening.  In hindsight, I wish I had studied the disease earlier as I would have understood at the time what was actually happening to my body and more fully understood the treatments I was to undergo. As we all know, Cancer knows no boundaries and even Doctors can succumb to his disease. Despite this, I was still surprised to…
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Not all cancers are black, white, blue, pink – some are very grey

Not all cancers are black, white, blue, pink – some are very grey

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Over the last few months, I've seen quite a few posts entitled "Not all Cancer is pink".  I suspect it's a reference to the ubiquitous publicity that many women's cancer related advocates, bloggers and organisations attract. Those who use this phrase are perhaps concerned there is an imbalance and inherent unfairness in the distribution of support and are frustrated that their own cancer does not fare as well publicly? I share that frustration, however, I take my hat off to the battalions of advocates, bloggers and organisations who work very hard for breast and the various gynaecological cancers whether they push pink or not (and for the record, they don't all push or even agree with the 'pink' thing). I've even seen this term used within my own community - 'Not all cancer is pink, some…
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Neuroendocrine Cancer – the devil is in the detail

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[caption id="attachment_4343" align="aligncenter" width="500"] Nick Robinson BBC[/caption] Nick Robinson, well-known and ex-BBC Political Editor starts his new job today (16 Nov 15) on BBC Radio 4. He was until earlier this year, the most recognised political reporter face on UK TV, frequently stood outside 10 Downing St reporting on anything politics and at any time of the day. Like a lot of people, Nick's life changed when he was diagnosed with Cancer in Feb 2015. A self-confessed workaholic, he is now hoping to live a more balanced life after surviving lung cancer according to an article in the Sunday Times this weekend. He assumes the post vacated by James Naughtie, an extremely hard act to follow - a man who would frequently sink his teeth into a politician's leg and not let…
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Not all Cancer is simple

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[caption id="attachment_4135" align="alignleft" width="670"] Not all Cancer is simple[/caption] So Victoria Derbyshire has breast cancer and has used her 'workplace' as a platform to let people know she is a determined survivor. Nothing wrong with that, it's great cancer awareness for some and inspiration for others (including me). However, reading through various newspaper follow-up articles, blogs and social media comments, I can see criticism by many for producing an over simplified message (see picture below).  Although many of us will be wishing it was so, not all cancer is simple! Take Neuroendocrine Cancer for example. For some, this 'silent' cancer can take years to be finally diagnosed whilst the patient is misdiagnosed with other conditions often with debilitating symptoms. Once diagnosed, surgery (if it's possible) is just one of a number of treatment options…
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Let’s attack Cancer metaphors

Let’s attack Cancer metaphors

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In the past 24 months, I've read dozens of articles on the subject of cancer metaphors and in particular their use in describing cancer experiences with the words 'fight', 'battle' and other 'military' sounding terms.  The authors say that perhaps this is not the best language to use.  One author used the term 'violence' to describe these type of metaphors.  A ridiculous misrepresentation of the metaphor in my opinion. Let me put my cards right on the table as I would hate to twist the meaning of words or the inference of any metaphors I might use.  I don't like Cancer - it attacked me, it attacked my family, it attacked others I know, it has killed people I know....... it has killed millions of people and changed many lives. I'm 'fighting' Cancer.  I'm in a 'battle' with Cancer. But I don't mean all that…
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Screw that diagnosis and get on with it!

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  [caption id="attachment_3902" align="alignleft" width="300"] Screw that diagnosis and get on with it![/caption] Every now and then I see a positive story during my travels around the internet.  When I saw this one from K**** in Pennsylvania, I had to share.  If you're feeling a little bit down and need cheering up, dig out this blog and take a read :-) K**** wrote: "I began my Carcinoid journey about 7 years ago, newly married to a wonderful man and his daughter at the age of 43.  I was also newly retired (from CPA and also Large Animal/Equine Surgical Veterinary Assistant) and was looking forward to a nice, peaceful, fun, loooong life. But, things get in the way and can get bumpy - cancer, being one of them (and a now, 16yo…
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Sorry, I’m not in service

Sorry, I’m not in service

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Featured by Macmillan Cancer - check out this link. Featured by Cancer Knowledge Network - check out this link. It's good to be busy, it can take your mind off stuff you don't really want to think about. That was my tactic after being diagnosed with incurable Neuroendocrine Cancer.  I just kept working and working and was still sending work emails and making telephone calls on the day I was being admitted to hospital for major surgery. After all, how could they possibly function without me? Although I was banned from work after the surgery, I still dropped an email to let them know I was doing cartwheels down the hospital corridor. They expected nothing less. I guess the image of 'invincibility' was important to me at that time.  It was part of my personal…
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The C Word

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'The C Word' or 'The Big C' - the subject which must not be discussed.  Or is this now an out of date phrase?  I read a useful article a month ago where the author debated where we might be if, 50 years ago, we were as open about cancer as we are now (there, I said the word).  Nowadays you cannot turn a page in a newspaper without seeing a story of sadness, inspiration or medical science progress. Certainly the latter has played a huge part in reducing cancer mortality rates and sending more people into remission. We now have much better tools to discover and treat cancer. Moreover, because we are increasingly open about cancer, there is more awareness. According to Cancer Research UK, as we all live longer, more than one…
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The trouble with the ‘NET’ – Part 1 – Cancer Myths

The trouble with the ‘NET’ – Part 1 – Cancer Myths

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Certain popular ideas about how cancer starts and spreads - though scientifically wrong, can seem to make sense, especially when those ideas are rooted in old theories. To a certain extent, it can be the case with treatment too. But wrong ideas about cancer can lead to needless worry and even hinder good prevention and treatment decisions. In a study published last month, a surprising 40% of Americans believe cancer can be cured solely through alternative therapies, according to the American Society of Clinical Oncology (ASCO)’s second annual National Cancer Opinion Survey.  In a similar study in UK, the NHS blamed social media for the spread of fake healthcare news.  Unfortunately social media 'misinformation' includes 'alleged' cures for various ailments including cancer.  I think we've all been there, we check…
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Exercise is Medicine

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  I suspect we all know exercise is good for us but it does sometimes take quite a bit of effort to get out there and do some! Apparently the older you get, the harder it becomes (I can confirm this is true!).  I did write about this in 2014 (Exercise - it's a free prescription).  In fact, my blog  was actually created to document my return to fitness and good health 12 months ago! I was prompted to write this blog after discovering a piece of advice for NET Cancer patients, specifically those with carcinoid syndrome. The advice is one of those catchy 'single letter' lists called the "5 E's" of things to avoid - one of which is 'Exercise'.  Clearly 'Exercise' needs putting into some context as everybody needs…
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Breaking the NET

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I was both interested and perplexed to see that a story about the colours of a dress was the most discussed topic on the news and social media yesterday. I would have thought there were more important things to talk about but I take my hat off to the marketing people who made that one go viral. According to the UK news, this story "broke the internet". I wish some marketing gurus would make a NET Cancer story go viral!  I'm making inroads though. In the meantime, do you think this zebra is mainly white and gold or black and blue?  
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Turning a negative into a postive

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[caption id="attachment_2625" align="alignleft" width="400"] Lung Cancer Breathalyser[/caption] Interesting piece in the news today and there's an amazing story behind it.  The "Lung Cancer Breathalyser" is not a new technology but following the death of his wife from advanced colon cancer, inventor Billy Boyle has produced something good enough to have been accepted on a trial basis by the NHS. If successful, it has the potential to save thousands of lives. Lung Cancer is a big killer and the survival rate at Stage 4 is around 5%. Let's hope this invention works. When I was reading the article, I immediately recognised his wife as a blogger I was following and who died on Christmas day after fighting advanced colon cancer for 2 years.  Her final and penultimate blogs are very inspiring and worth reading. Her…
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Intelligent patients – just what the doctor didn’t order

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  [caption id="attachment_5440" align="aligncenter" width="309"] This blog was featured by Carcinoid Cancer Foundation[/caption]   I'm extremely pleased and honoured to have been selected as the first guest contributor to feature in the Carcinoid Cancer Foundation's blog site! I've been following these guys since I was diagnosed.  They have been serving the Carcinoid/NET Community for over 44 Years and they are in my opinion the largest and most respected Carcinoid Cancer organisation on the planet. The Carcinoid Cancer Foundation began as the ‘Carcinoid Tumor and Serotonin Research Foundation’ in 1968 when the NIH fund for rare cancers was terminated. The name was changed to the Carcinoid Cancer Foundation in 1995. It is a non-profit organization chartered by the State of New York for the purpose of encouraging and supporting research and education…
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Disobedient Objects

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[caption id="attachment_2510" align="alignleft" width="300"] Disobedient Object[/caption] My wife and I were in London recently and we took the opportunity to visit the world-famous Victoria and Albert (V&A) Museum in South Kensington.  A particular display caught my eye entitled "Disobedient Objects" and I immediately thought it had a scientific sound to it.  Imagining a set of everyday objects which somehow didn't behave as you would expect, it sounded great fun so I wandered in.  How wrong I was, it was actually an exhibition examining the powerful role of objects in movements for social change.  The term 'disobedient' was used as these objects were designed by grassroots social movements mostly for use in street protests.  These ranged from bike locks for chaining your head to a fence to makeshift tear gas masks; to large inflatable cobblestones designed to act as a…
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Well done NHS!

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I've been reasonably lucky with my health over the years, suffering only the usual common ailments.  I was slightly asthmatic as a child but this seemed to disappear when I left school going straight into military service. They say an army marches on its stomach... only partly true but the military did look after my health with regular check ups.  I think the only medical emergency I had in my 29 years in that wonderful organisation was being knocked out in boxing training aged 16! When I left the military in 2001, I was fortunate to benefit from free health insurance at my new employers. However, I was now at an age where there was a bit of 'wear and tear' and bits were starting to fall off :-)  I had a…
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2014 in review

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The WordPress.com people prepared a 2014 annual report for this blog. Here's an excerpt: The concert hall at the Sydney Opera House holds 2,700 people. This blog was viewed about 13,000 times in 2014. If it were a concert at Sydney Opera House, it would take about 5 sold-out performances for that many people to see it. Click here to see the complete report. Check out my Facebook site here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/NET-Cancer-Blog/476922399112723
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End of the year but not end of the mission

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[caption id="attachment_2374" align="aligncenter" width="600"] Ronny & Chris Allan - festive sweaters :-)[/caption] Hope you all had a nice festive break?  Chris and I had 3 separate dinners making sure we made the most of our extended family base.  We decided to join in the Christmas jumper fashion statement which seems to be vogue this year - thus the picture!  At least we got to wear them 3 times! Now that busy period is over, I've had the chance to reflect on the last 8 months of blogging and look forward to my plans for 2015. I created this blog site on 29 Apr 2014 mainly to document an 84 mile charity hike across Hadrian's Wall - a World Heritage site in the North of England near the border with Scotland.  I was just a 'learner'…
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Tobacco and Cancer: A smoking gun?

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I've never smoked so I'm reasonably confident my own cancer experience is not related to this type of personal lifestyle.  I did, however, grow up in a world where smoking was widespread and a generally accepted behaviour. We now know that smoking causes more than four in five cases of lung cancer. Lung cancer not only has one of the lowest survival rates of all cancers, but is the most common cause of cancer death in the UK.  Shockingly, most of these deaths are preventable, by giving up smoking in time or not starting at all. Smoking also increases the risk of at least 13 other cancers including the larynx (voice box), oesophagus (gullet), mouth and pharynx (throat), bladder, pancreas, kidney, liver, stomach, bowel, cervix, ovary, nose and sinus, and some types of leukaemia. There is also some evidence…
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Neuroendocrine Cancer – early diagnosis, not early misdiagnosis?

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The papers and social media seem to be full of awareness and early diagnosis articles this month.  This coincided with world NET Cancer Day on 10 Nov and world Pancreatic Cancer day on 13 Nov.  Social media was, therefore, buzzing with messages from organisations supporting and advocating for both of these cancer types.  These issues also made it to the conventional media outlets of newspapers, radio and television.  Last week I watched a clip from the UK national news, where 7-year survivor of Pancreatic Cancer Ali Stunt was telling the nation about the top 3 symptoms of Pancreatic Cancer and I was struck by the similarities with NET Cancer. However what really caught my ear was Ali saying how important it was for individuals to think whether the symptoms they…
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Awareness, Awareness, Awareness

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When Tony Blair swept to power in 1997, he said:  "Ask me my three main priorities for government and I tell you education, education, and education".  His approach of repeated word emphasis has been copied and recycled by many others replacing the words with something to suit their own message.  I'm now guilty of similar plagiarism! NET Cancer is rare and as a consequence has a small community of sufferers and specialists. It does not get the same levels of publicity, funding and research that the bigger patient population and more common cancers receive.  It therefore needs 'team work' to send a bigger and more powerful awareness message.  Thus why the World NET Community formed in Berlin in March 2010.  This is a group of NET cancer patient organisations from countries as…
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A Commitment to Fight Cancer

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[caption id="attachment_1992" align="alignnone" width="640"] Steve Davis and the Author[/caption] I was a spectator at the Bournemouth marathon on Sunday 5 Oct 2014.  I was there to shout for my old army friend, Steve Davis, who was running 26.2 miles for PLANETS Charity.  When Steve found out I was living with Neuroendocrine Cancer, he immediately volunteered his services to help raise funds. Steve is a runner but when you are '50 something', running a marathon is no easy feat - not easy on your feet either :-) I had seen excerpts of marathons on television but this was my first time as a spectator at a live event.  One thing that struck me was the sheer number of people who were running for good causes. The usual big names were there (Cancer…
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Passive patient or active advocate?

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Sorry to have been quiet for a while but I've been so busy with house, family and cancer campaigning activities.  Additionally, I've been continuing my research into Neuroendocrine Cancer.  Why do I do this?  Whilst I have a great medical team, I'd also like to be my own advocate and this means understanding what medical people tell me! Moreover, I don't want to be a passive patient, I want to be an active advocate for my own health.  I found this infographic on the internet which sums up my own views nicely (special thanks to Know your Own Health Ltd). [caption id="attachment_1938" align="aligncenter" width="500"] Passive vs Activated Patient[/caption] I actually enjoy researching neuroendocrine disease and I'd like to think it was all in one book somewhere - this simply isn't…
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No flushes please!

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[caption id="attachment_1893" align="alignnone" width="640"] No flushes please![/caption] Despite people's expectations, diagnosing Cancer isn't a two minute job. There is a whole host of stuff to consider and medical staff clearly want to get it 100% correct in order to plan and manage the patient's treatment. I wrote a blog on 26 July "celebrating" 4 years since diagnosis - it's worth a read, check it out at this link here: http://wp.me/p4AplF-c Continuing with the 'four years on' theme, 4 years today I started my first treatment. That was a full 6 weeks after diagnosis. I think many people might expect a quicker execution of treatment. However, I cannot remember becoming impatient, albeit mine was to be palliative/cyto reductive (tumour debulking) rather than curative. I did have a 3 day Octreotide Scan…
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Childhood Neuroendocrine Cancer – 1 in 7 million!

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September is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month!  The newspapers and social media will no doubt be featuring many child cancer articles and I notice the UK's top soap Coronation Street is already featuring such a story. I personally cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to be a parent who has a child with cancer. I would just hope my child would be placed into the care and safe custody of experienced medical teams and would be able to get access to the best treatments available.  I don't know that much about Childhood cancers but the Cancer Research UK site has a nice summary on this page.  You will note that over half of childhood cancers are either Acute Leukaemias or Brain Cancer. I do know a lot about Neuroendocrine Cancer…
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Met an old friend today; his name is Gym

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I think I first met Gym at school in the sixties - we normally met on a weekly basis. We were reacquainted when I joined the army and hooked up more frequently! It was there I met some of Gym's friends, known as PTIs (Physical Training Instructors). Their opening line was normally "Ten times round my large bronze chest...... GO! " and then we would proceed with the 'beasting'.  I suspect I might now be prodded by the PTIs on my facebook page - there are one or two out there :-) I've always been a fairly fit guy but over time my fitness had faded.  I'm to blame entirely for this but I suppose it hasn't been helped by a diagnosis of metastatic Neuroendocrine Cancer.  However, I'm now turning this negative…
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Am I at fighting weight?

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I recently blogged about my boxing experience in post: http://wp.me/p4AplF-r7  In those days I was just a wee skinny 16 year old guy! I think I was in the Bantamweight category, somewhere between 8 and 9 stone (50 - 57 kg). Although I gained some weight after years of service in the military, I didn't really 'bulk out' in the wrong places until I left the military aged 45. Even then it wasn't what you would call overweight or obese. I joined a gym, determined to maintain some form of fitness.  I sacked it due to pressures of work but then joined a few years later for another go. However, work and associated commuting took over again and I withdrew once more. In those days, I didn't really weigh myself and…
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“You’re from Dundee – you must like fighting”

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Apparently all Scotsmen wear kilts, have ginger hair, eat nothing but deep fried Mars Bars and they like a good fight! Stereotyping is frequently used to wind people up and can on occasion be used in an irrational or insulting manner.  However, I believe one of those attributes is accurate.  I was once 'volunteered' for boxing because my home town was Dundee!   Read on... Dundee was put on the boxing map in the late fifties and in the early sixties due to the legendary Dick McTaggart who won a Gold and Bronze medal in two separate Olympic Games (for Great Britain). Many new boxing clubs sprang up in Dundee over this period and you can see the evidence of his legacy today.  It's also timely for this blog that Dundee…
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Four years on

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On Saturday, I glanced at the calendar on my phone and recognised the date as some sort of anniversary - 26 July.  It was exactly 4 years to the day I received my diagnosis of Metastatic Neuroendocrine Cancer. It all began 2 months previously with a routine asthma clinic appointment when I mentioned to the Nurse Practitioner that I thought I'd lost half a stone in weight.  She immediately said "did you mean to lose the weight" and the answer was "no" on the basis that I just simply thought I was heavier.  As a precaution she sent me for a set of blood tests and then a retest.  I later marched into the GP's office (having been asked to come to the surgery) to hear the GP say "I…
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Finding Hotspots

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Just back from a nice relaxing holiday in Tenerife.  I don't know about you but when overseas I find myself looking for 'hotspots' everywhere I go....... I don't mean trendy entertainment venues, I'm talking about the modern phenomenon known as a WiFi signal! I also mean free and open connections.  Even recent price reductions within Europe did not tempt me to use 'data'  overseas and I didn't even want to take advantage of the £2 per day upgrade of my mobile phone account which would give me access to my minutes/MBs overseas on a temporary basis. I just look for free WiFi and I also make a point of turning off 'data' on my phone before leaving the country to avoid expensive mistakes.  No Scottish jokes please, I'm just frugal :-) My hotspot…
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A Highland Coup

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[caption id="attachment_1633" align="alignnone" width="640"] Highland Coos[/caption] One of my favourite memories from childhood is the vision of the finest looking cattle in the UK - the Highland 'Coo' (for those who are thinking I've made a mistake in my title spelling, read on!).   The memories are not confined to seeing them grazing in the fields but I also remember them as the iconic symbol of a famous Scottish toffee known as "Highland Toffee" made by McGowans in Stenhousemuir - also famous for its football team :-)  Having researched this toffee for my blog, I just found out the firm went bust in 2011.  However, the brand survived and the toffee bars are now made in England (grrrrr, sacrilege!). The first overnight stay during the Hadrian's Wall challenge (see blog links below) was…
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Things are not always how they seem

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I met quite a few interesting people during my walk of Hadrian's Wall last month. On Day 3 when Chris and I were accompanied by Dave Taylor, we could see a couple heading up the hill that we were progressing down.  We couldn't help noticing that the male of the duo was continually stopping to talk to others and we were no exception.  His wife kept overtaking him at these points not saying a word. He got chatting to me and Dave and we worked out he was Irish.  I love Irish people and I know they like to talk - but this guy was really good at it!  We discussed where we were all from and he proceeded to tell us that most big companies in the world were run by Irish people or those descended from…
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Up and atom!!

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  I already explained Day 1 of this 3 day 'scanathon' in blog: http://wp.me/p4AplF-lY     Bit techy but added some humour to dilute some of that down. Just a quick post to elaborate on the remainder of the experience which was completed yesterday. I've had this scan twice previously with the last one in the summer of 2011 and both were done in Bournemouth Hospital. Due to a merging of the Bournemouth and Poole Nuclear Medicine Departments, these are now done at Poole. Interesting journey from/to Ringwood especially in the rush hour!  Also, the hospital parking was challenging to say the least.  I covered a total of 120 miles (4 visits) plus £9 in parking fees.  However, it's a small price to pay for the benefits received. They gave me…
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Forget the posturing, it’s results that matter

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  [caption id="attachment_1467" align="alignleft" width="288"] Good Results[/caption]   You can tell there is a football competition on and they don't get bigger than the World Cup which I believe is one of the world's great sporting competitions second only to the Olympics?  Like it or not, this is a time when football fans suddenly become experts, apparently knowing even more about the game than the managers, players, pundits and commentators - particularly in hindsight after the match!  Is it just me or do you also wonder why these 'armchair pundits' aren't in the aforementioned jobs :-) Social media has increased the reach of the armchair pundits and consequently we now have to listen to running commentaries of every game and of course their disapproval of any decision or infringement against the…
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I’ve just been nuked!

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When I was in the military, I was given basic training in how to deal with the threat of Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfare (known then as NBC).   However, there was a focus on the chemical side as that was classed as the most defendable of the 3 and probably the most likely scenario (but that's only my opinion!).  I think the training for nuclear attack consisted of the following advice: 'put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye' :-)  Some 13 years after departing that wonderful organisation, I'm now allowing radioactivity to be injected into my body! At my age I'm no longer physically able to put my head between my legs but in any case, I need not be concerned about this controlled 'contamination'…
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Beyond the Wall

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One of the first tasks on return from Hadrian's Wall was to catch up with my favourite TV show Game of Thrones (GOT).  The latest story concerns Tyrion Lannister, the dwarf son of Lord Tywin Lannister. Tyrion is technically the heir to House Lannister, thus why his father Tywin is plotting to get rid of him using the murder of King Joffrey as the reason. There was even talk of him being banished for eternity to be the Lord of the Sworn Brothers of the 'Night's Watch' on the Wall to face the 'blue painted' barbarians not to mention the mysterious 'White Walkers'.  Can't wait until tonight's episode :-) The GOT writer used Hadrian's Wall as his inspiration for the Wall in the TV series.  This fictitious wall is a colossal fortification which stretches along…
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So what next?

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[caption id="attachment_1155" align="aligncenter" width="480"] Wet but happy![/caption] Well we did it! Chris and I finished our 84 mile Hadrian's Wall challenge on Saturday 31 May 2014 around 1630 hours at Bowness-on-Solway.  The final leg from Carlisle was listed as 14.5 miles but on our app it was more like 16 miles. We headed straight to the only pub in the village for a celebratory pint!  Very happy to be finished :-) We had trained for 4 months for this challenge but it was tougher than we had imagined, particularly the effect on our feet.  That's not to say the training was a waste of time, far from it. The terrain across the walk is so varied ranging from tarmac to mud (and we mean deep mud!).   The weather could…
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